Transcript:
April 26, 2021
3:19pm
Phone conversation between Alicia Vick and Maggie Vick (aunt to Elijah Vick)
Maggie
The kids were playing on the other side and it got hot so I went out there and, you know Kendall (her 2 year old grandson) can tell me “I’m thirsty”. You know, so I went and got him some water and I saw the baby over there and I said baby are you thirsty, you want some water and he needed some water, so I’m sitting there and I gave him some water and let him keep that bottle to walk around with him. But the whole time, he wasn’t up in nobody’s lap, he needs some nurturing attention.
Alicia-
Yes he does and that’s our relationship and I can send you all the pictures of me and him, I take very good care of my baby. He is the most sweet and adorable thing and for him to be neglected is completely out of the question. I wish I had known they were going to be at some Easter egg hunt. People want to give Elijah the benefit of the doubt, I’m telling you it took me 10 years to learn that he does not have the ability to say “I recognize the kids need to be around you, you can just come and be around them, take care of them. His whole, he’s so selfish that he’s not able, its all about hurting me however he can abuse me, it has nothing to do with the children, but my point is that he does not, if everybody is waiting for Elijah to say, that he realized that what he’s doing is wrong, that’s never going to happen and it took me 10 years to understand that. I was only able to leave once I was able to know that 100% for a fact that he will never change. He’s never going to be able to say…he doesn’t have a heart, he doesn’t have a conscience, he’s not going to be able to just one day get a conscience. To one day just be able to say “I feel bad.” He doesn’t feel bad, its a personality disorder, but there’s not ever going to be a day where he says “my heart…I feel” He doesn’t feel. And its sad because the children are the ones who have to suffer while this man who is convicted of multiple counts of violence on me in the presence of the children and everybody’s waiting to the detriment of the children for him to come to his senses and its never going to happen, ever.
Maggie
Well how successful are you being with getting the court to see your side of things.
Alicia
I could be more successful if you even wrote what you just told me about that baby being out there with nobody watching him and being hot and neglected. Even if you were to be able to write that that would be helpful because right now its my word and he is very manipulative so he can tell be I had them living in a barn or however he displays that evil that he puts forth in order to make someone think that I’m doing anything wrong when I don’t do anything but, and he knows that, that my passion is for my children. I don’t do anything except…my children have been with me all day every day since they were born. I don’t send them to other people. I don’t even trust other people to care for them like I would and Elijah knows that. He is abusive to me, this is about abuse and I can send articles, like there’s this man who writes about abusers in custody situations and how an abuser looks in custody situations and he is explaining Elijah exactly. I’ll send it to you, I can text you the link.
Maggie
I’m not interested in trying to analyze his issues I really want to see these kids get into a stable situation and I will document my observation. Because I did not say anything to Elijah at the time because I knew it was not going to make a difference to the situation, but I will document in writing what I observed and my feelings about it in regards to that particular day and what I witnessed during the time he had them and what ___ it has on the overall situation, I can’t anticipate, but I will be will to speak directly to my feelings about what I saw and the fact that the youngest child…your oldest daughter is grieving, clearly. She’s grieving. The baby is tossed in the middle. He’s not out there with his grandma, I was out there with Kendall. Kendall had 2 grandparents out there and his uncle, even though his daddy wasn’t there and Maxie had his grandkids out there and I don’t think any of Connie’s grandkids were out there, but Deborah had her grandkids out there. So your little baby, relying on Elijah and every time I turned around I don’t know, Elijah might have been running behind Rickey or back in Perry, but I just did not see him being attentive to the youngest child at that time as he would have needed to be. I know that when they are in family situations anybody is going to look out for all of the kids so he would have felt free in that circumstance to just let them be around other kids and let them do what the other kids were doing, but if its any reflection of…it was really the baby’s demeanor that struck me more than anything. He was lost, he doesn’t look happy. He doesn’t look like a happy baby at all. He doesn’t. He doesn’t look like a happy baby and that’s not an indication that he’s being hurt, but it just appears to me that he’s not getting the level of nurture that he needs as a young child. Its clear that he’s not getting that. He doesn’t have any vibrancy or energy about him you know, he was just kind of there and it really saddened me because I know the kind of nurturing care and attention that I’m giving my 2 year old. My 2 year old grandson because his daddy is not ready for him, nor is his mother. But Johnathan is taking care of him in every way but he’s just forming up to the idea of the nurture part because he wasn’t prepared to have him so I’m trying to take up the slack with that, but yes, your baby needs you. Your baby needs to be around you or somebody and I will tell anyone who wants to know. So text me the address of where you want me to send it. And I’m not trying to indict him or you, but I’m trying to make sure that whatever is the best outcome for the kids, they don’t need to be separated like they are to where they can’t interact with each other. If molestation or abuse to the point of harm has not been proven on either of your cases y’all both need to be adults and sit down and have a conversation with someone about how all of your children can get the care that they need.
Alicia
We haven’t had a hearing first of all, relating to that. Like I said, it took me 10 years. I’m nowhere near stupid or slow or anything along those lines. This is abuse, this is what emotional abuse looks like. It looks like a person from the outside not being able to recognize who is the offending party even though there are documented instances of abuse, even though you can say you saw my baby being neglected, even though my daughter told you that she’s not allowed to see her brothers. Even with all of that, because of his conversation it makes an outside person want to give him the benefit of the doubt to say well maybe he’s not this or that.
Maggie
I don’t know, I can only take your word for it as far as that’s concerned. What I’m telling you is you guys are, both of you are those kids parents and at some point somebody has got to press for our kids to be in the situation they need to be in and whose going to advocate for that to happen because right now with them being separated, that’s a problem right there, whatever the reason is. If its because he’s withholding them or whatever, if its not the court saying they need to be separated then they don’t need to be separated.
Alicia
No, it’s not the court. Right, but it takes somebody like you to be able to say that to Elijah because everybody is either scared of him or to just say, “what you’re doing is not in the best interest of your children and I condemn what you’re doing.” People don’t say that, they just sit there and let him abuse children so he can feel comfortable. And it takes a good person standing on their good to say, I’m not going to let evil come in and, especially when the children are your family.
Maggie
Its going to be difficult fo you to, you are the mother of the children and you have suffered at the hands of your husband as the perpetrator to whatever degree. So I’m just trying to be objectionable, and set aside your relationship issues.
Alicia
That’s not it
Maggie
This is my position though. What has happened in your relationship has had an effect on the children. And the effect that it has had on the children as a result of the things that the 2 of you are going through is affecting them negatively. And I did tell him to his face that he needed to let those kids be with you and if he was concerned about whatever condition that they were living under based on whatever video he’s showing people or wherever you were in North Caroline, pay you the amount of money that you need to make sure that they are in suitable living conditions.
Alicia
That’s true because he wasn’t paying any child support even though we weren’t living in any unsuitable living conditions, we were being free. We bough land and we were camping on our land, we weren’t in anything that was unsuitable. The only reason that…I don’ t want to go into the long story but as far as my mother taking my boys because of him and then the day after I got my son back from her, she called them and made allegations and they didn’t like that I didn’t let them trespass onto the property so they came back with assault rifles and took all of the children to her and when I was heard in court the custody order was dissolved their custody order was dissolved and the children were to be returned to me as per the court order, but he went and took the children working with her and he took them and brought them here. There were no unsuitable living conditions. If anyone would talk to the children about the experience, the children can tell the truth to everybody about it. But, what I want to ask you is, you said me and him sit down with a mediator for the best interest of the children. What happens when he is unwilling to do that, its not about the children to him. Its not about what’s best for the children. If something happened to them he would just wait until after it happened and then he would be like oh and that’s not ok but that’s his thing. So if he’s not willing to recognize the best interest. And is not even willing, this its from what I’ve learned, he’s not able to. This is narcissism, its a personality disorder, he can’t think about other people, he’s not, it doesn’t matter if its a child or whoever it is. He deosn’t have the ability to put himself into another person’s shoes to see how they feel in a situation. Narcissism is all about this extreme selfishness and it is a result of trauma.
Maggie
What I’m saying is, these are facts, this is not no impression. Your baby is out there and clearly does not look…I’m not talking about unkempt or clean or cleanliness, that is not what I’m talking about. Emotionally, your children are suffering and he needs to hear that from somebody else. Even if he cannot fathom that on his own because the next question is “what are you going to do about it.” Because this is the circumstance that you have put your children into and there needs to be some alternative as opposed to what is currently going on because they are not benefiting from it and its showing all over their face.
Alicia
Right, like how much harm has to come to the children for something to change. I don’t know where they are, I would go over there right now. If I know they are at Crystal’s house, I would go over there right now and get them. Theres not order. From what I know he’s moved and when I go to Crystal’s house, they are supposedly at daycare. I don’t know where the daycare is. Mimi’s too scared to tell me anything. He has her in an extreme state of fear. She can’t talk to me, she can’t tell me anything. If I knew where they were at right now, I would go get them right now. Theres no order. But if somebody, I don’ t know if you know if they moved, but all I know is people waiting on Elijah to do something different is never going to happen and what point does it have to come to because from what I see, it would have to be a point where one of the children got hurt and then when somebody got hurt, then people would want to start asking questions and that’s not ok to me that’s not acceptable, my children are not going to get to that point.
Maggie
I know they’re in daycare Alicia, this is not even an issue of them being at risk of physical harm, they are not at risk of physical harm.
Alicia
They are at risk of physical harm because like you said he was wondering around and nobody was caring for him. He’s doing that home, you better believe its happening at home because it was happening when I was there, but I was there so I was the one who was taking on both of our jobs. But you better believe that Mimi is doing more of the taking care of the 2 babies than anybody. That’s not a part of him, he’s not going to be attentive to their needs so they’re very much at risk of physical harm. Its just how long.
Maggie
Okay but not barring that they’ve already been emotionally harmed. You cannot see that, they cannot articulate that, but emotionally, your kids are suffering. Your kids, this situation…divorce harms all kids, I don’t care how old they are, that is a psychological and mental health known fact.
Alicia
But when you have an irresponsible person inside of it as well, it can only create more harm. Im up here reading about how to approach divorce with children of different ages and its such a sensitive situation. And like I said, if you will tell me where they are, I will go get my babies.
Maggie
I don’t know where your kids are, we were in Perry on Easter Sunday and he brought them to the Easter egg hunt. We were all in a field in Perry that Deborah Ann owns and I haven’t seen them since then. And it was the girls and the baby and we left before they did because we got there before they did. And as far as his living, I haven’t even seen him at the shop because I drove by there this morning so I don’t know what he’s doing because I haven’t seen him since Easter Sunday. I dont know where the kids are. I thought they were with crystal.
Alicia
From what I know they moved. I’m going over there. He’s done a lot to put me into this state of fear. Like I said, he punched me in my face in front of them and knocked me unconscious. And that is not all he’s done, he’s been doing stuff to me for years he’s worked very hard to put me into this state to be fearful of him. But I’m not anymore, I don’t care. If you hear about him beating me up tonight or whatever, Im going over there.
Maggie
What are you going over there to do
Alicia
I’m going to get my children. That is not me, I take very good care of my children. My children are not neglected.
Maggie
Do you think you’ll just be able to walk in there and get them like that though
Alicia
I don’t know what’s going to happen, I have God though and that’s fuel for my not being in fear anymore
Maggie
Well I’m not talking about not being fearful anymore because you still have to be thoughtful so you don’t want to get arrested, you don’t want to get challenged.
Alicia
I might get arrested
Maggie
Well if you got arrested you wouldn’t get the kids Alicia
Alicia
Right, that’s the position I’ve been put into
Maggie
You would not be accomplishing your goal. You have to be mindful about how you’re going to do this.
Alicia
Because him and Crystal have trespassed me from over there so the police has threatened that if I go over there I would get arrested.
Maggie
So if you go over there, they would call the police on you. Don’t put yourself in that position.
Alicia
I would go by myself
Maggie
Im saying you would be going over there for nothing if you go over there and they call the cops on you and you get arrested, you would not be accomplishing what you set out to do. Then he would get all of the kids. Because the people who the kids are with are not your kin. So then you would make it worse if he ends up with the boys because you got put in jail. Don’t do it. Think about what you’re doing, pray about it and then decide, but don’t just roll up.
Alicia
I mean if you can help me come up with a good plan
Maggie
Like I said, I would like to facilitate you guys being able to sit down in front of each other. The 2 of you. Are you affiliated with any church or anything?
Alicia
Not here. You’re talking about a 3rd party?
Maggie
If there’s someone who can listen to the both of you, and help you guys come to a conclusion about how you can proceed from that point.So that everybody can be heard respectfully. If he beat you Alicia, that’s a fact. ITs a fact that can’t be changed or unchanged. It happened. Hes not going to be able to change that, but right now you’re not in court to challenge the domestic abuse. You’re trying to get your kids back and justify it. So I would be willing to represent the position, not necessarily from what I know of what he’s been doing, because I don’t know that, but based on what I’ve seen, and if you have the ability to take care of them and he has the ability to pay for you to take care of them, then you should be taking care of them instead of your sister in law.
Alicia
Exactly, why separate them from me to try to give them to someone else its so disgusting.
Maggie
Well the other side of that is, there’s noting to be gained from keeping them from seeing each other.
Alicia
Exactly, that’s further
Maggie
These would be my verbal arguments, if somebody asked me, if someone in authority asked me I would say, “I don’t understand why they’re being kept from each other. What is this accomplishing. To make him have to be in a position to A. Justify it and to justify doing it and to justify continuing to do it. Theres not justification and he needs to be challenged on that point at a minimum. And the reason would be he doesn’t want to put them into a position to where you can take them. You guys do not have to be husband and wife for y’all to be parents to these kids. Y’all do not have to like each other, but you do have to cooperate because the kids are the main thing.
Alicia
Right, and he has a fear that if I see them that I would take them and so because of his fear, nobody is allowed to see each other
Maggie
I mean fear to what extent, is he telling the authorities youre going to take them out of the state?
Alicia
This is what he’s saying to me, he’s not saying anything to authorities. He’s hired an attorney and she’s stupid. She’s pushing things out months and months so she can get paid. He’s not even there, she’s talking for him and has no idea what she’s even talking about, but she’s friends with the judges and everybody. And he doesn’t have any sort of custody and I can’t just sit here and wait for these evil people to think about my children and what’s best for them.
Maggie
Yeah, well, try to see if you can get a mediation appointment so he’s having to talk to someone whose not his lawyer and whose not in a court room. I mean, if nothing else, he would hear himself talk. I want y’all to sit down and talk about this, so these kids can get what they need.
Alicia
I hear what youre saying, like I said it took me 10 years to recognize. I already know what I am sure would happen. If they’re not somebody who can make him do anything.
Maggie
Well when you say that, it’s nobody but the law. Nobody can make him do anything. Ain’t nobody going to be able to make him do anything.
Alicia
Well there are people who can relating to y’all family and you, like people who he admires. Like people whose opinions matter to him. Like you and his older sister.
Maggie
If he’s as much of a narcissist as you say he is going to still remain in his own ideas about what is right or wrong about his kids. I said what I had to say directly to him and took him away from that room to have this discussion with him and to try to encourage him to at least meet you half way so a lot of the things about him being an abuser, thinking the way an abuser does, trying to be opportunistic and trying to take advantage of situations in his own interest. All of those things are at play. So the thing I’m saying the mediation may result in is, somebody else gets to hear him have to provide some valid reasons for why, #1, the kids can’t see each other. Somebody else needs to hear him say why he’s doing this because it doesn’t make sense and that’s a place to start. And the next question is, why can’t y’all share custody. Working 12 hours a day, he’s not taking care of those kids, someone else is. And I would be willing to write and I don’t have a problem, because I’m not going to write about whose right and whose wrong in the situation, but I will be willing to stand for and advocate what these kids need and its not the bs that is going on between y’all because they don’t have any control over that. Somebody has to step up and be a parent and you’re having to defend your position as a parent and its making him feel like he has to defend against you, but you guys are both the kids parents at the end of the day. And so its still going to come down to what y’all decide and you can’t shame him into doing it. Now narcissists understand logic, they’re very analytical so on the basis of being logical, Crystal is not a mother and she’s certainly not a mother to multiple kids. They’re your kids, you love them, you gave birth to them, why can’t you take care of them because that’s what I asked him. I was like, why don’t you just let her take care of them and you make sure she has the money she needs to do it. Why can’t you just do that. You’re not at home. He listened respectfully, but he is still going to do whatever he sees as right in his mind and as long as he’s able to manipulate in ways such as moving away to where no one knows where he is these are the kinds of things you will have to bring to someone else’s attention to say, look at the kinds of things that he is doing in order to avoid us being able to interact and for what reason. You haven’t been found to be an abuser, you haven’t been found to be neglectful. So what is the real reason that he’s causing these children to suffer this separation. There’s no logical reason, other than his own sense of what he believes is right or wrong, without taking into consideration the kids needs.
Alicia
Right, and what’s in their best interest.
Maggie
Well no, him being gone 10-12 hours a day while his sister is taking care of them, for sure can’t be in their best interest when they have a mother whose not on drugs. Now if he’s mad at you because you have a boyfriend, he’s not going to be able to do anything about who you’re in a relationship with. That’s never going to be something that he will be able to control. You get to choose to do with your life whatever you choose to do with it.
Alicia
I really don’t even think that’s what it is, I think its just emotional abuse like, if my passion was not for my children, he would not be doing this. He would be attacking whatever he knew was something that was very dear to me. This is what they do and that’s all its about.
Maggie
Well its unfair to these kids and it needs to stop. Nobody’s winning and definitely the kids are losing. He’s not winning, you’re not winning. This is not a win or lose situation, but if there were winners and losers, the ones who would definitely be losing are yalls kids. And with that said I’m picking my grandson up from the daycare center. So just let me know if you want me to write something and where to send it to.
Alicia
Yeah if you want to write it, I can pick it up from anywhere. This stuff has to happen expediently. My baby can’t be wondering around somewhere and I’m not going to wait for them to get hurt, something has to happen immediately. I can pick it up. You can leave it somewhere, I can come over there. However. Just as soon as you can get it written, I can pick it up.